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Journalist Katie Couric and MSNBC host Chris Hayes during a Tuesday podcast episode lamented the challenges they face in covering President Donald Trump.

Americans’ trust in the mass media fell to a record low ahead of the November election, according to an October Gallup survey. Couric and Hayes, on “Next Question with Katie Couric,” both acknowledged that they are “wrestling with” how to change their approach to reporting on Trump during his second term.

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“People say they don’t want to know, but my job is to tell them what’s happening. And if it’s fact-based reporting, then to pro-MAGA people, it seems biased. And it’s a real conundrum,” Couric said. “And sometimes you just have to say, ‘To hell with it, I’m just going to do the best I can.’ But it’s tricky.”

“It’s really hard. I don’t think I’ve — it’s still an unsolved problem, even these ten years in. I’ve got a few guiding principles that I’ve been thinking about, some of which I’ve thought of before, some of which have become the sharper focus this time around. The first is modulation is key,” Hayes responded. “If you turn the volume on your stereo up to 10 and you leave it there, it starts to sound like five. And then you can’t ever turn it up past 10. So you have to modulate. And that was really important in the first term and it’s important here. Not everything is of equal urgency or danger.”

Trump’s second term so far has been a whirlwind, with the president making numerous executive actions and frequent press interactions.

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“That’s what a lot of people are writing about, that it can’t be a five-alarm fire every time he does something, that you have to be much more selective about the things you shine your spotlight on,” Couric said. “And I think that’s part of their strategy is to flood the zone with so many things. You don’t quite know what to really dive deeply into.”

Hayes agreed, adding his “second principle” for covering Trump is “focus is power.” He noted he planned to spend two nights on Trump’s pardons because they are “really important and an abomination.”

The MSNBC host said his third principle for covering the president is “start with the facts and work to the story.”

“And what I mean by that is to actually read the executive order, understand what it means, talk to subject matter experts in that area of law: is this actually going to tangibly affect people? Is this essentially a press release? Understanding what’s happening as the first thing to build your foundation on, it sounds obvious, but it’s because things happen so fast, and because he does so much, you can get trapped in covering him because the actions play some narrative role, but you don’t actually have a handle on what’s being done,” he said. “And that, to me, is really important — like, always, always drill down on the details.”

Couric asked Hayes if he will cover topics he believes to be “positive,” with the MSNBC host answering affirmatively.

Following the November presidential election, Couric expressed confusion about Americans voting for Trump despite his “behavior and actions.” She suggested that the president’s conduct throughout the 2020 election cycle and his May Manhattan conviction should have alienated more voters.

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